Re: P-185 Turtling

Posted By: Tom Scott, P-18
Date: 2/25/05 7:18p.m.

Report: outside forum guidelines

In Response To: P-185 Turtling (link) (My-Precision-185.Com)

Mr. "My Precision-185.com", First, unlike the more blunt among us, I do not feel you are an idiot. I appreciate that you had a harrowing experience, and you are understandably disappointed and upset. I mean, one day you had a nice boat, the next day you had a pile of crap. Who wouldn't be upset? Frankly, based on what happened, and how you related the story, I am admittedly surprised that you are not a "Newbie". Considering things you said like: "…by this time the tiller must have been out of the water", and your decision to sail with your ballasted centerboard raised, when – by your own account – "…winds were changing rapidly and unpredictably", and your decision to leave a P-185 on a mooring with a roller furling jib in place …well …all these decisions are not ones that most "experienced" sailors would make. But, we all have different experiences, perspectives, abilities, and learning curves. Unfortunately, you were unable to translate your "14 years" of sailing experience into something that would help you in the handling and caring for your P-185. Please allow me to guide you in viewing your complaints about the boat from a different perspective. I offer you a few questions. I'm not going to provide answers to these questions; I just want you to consider them, and think them through: "What makes the Precision 185 dangerous, in our opinion, is the rapidity in which it turtles (under 5 seconds-not nearly enough time to climb over the hull and stop the centerboard from disappearing, as was suggested) First, you stated you were sailing with the board raised in winds that were changing rapidly and were unpredictable. How would you expect a performance-oriented dinghy to behave when knocked down in that configuration? Would you expect it float on its side like your laser would? Even with the much heavier rig? …even with a furled-up jib? …even with a larger mast? …even with all that standing rigging? How do you know you couldn't jump over the side and get to the board when you had it raised to begin with? Do you think having it raised would cause the boat to turn turtle faster? You didn't state so in your story, but based on your description, I can only assume that either you, or your dad, or both of you, decided (as a reflex) to cling to the deck as long as possible – even after it passed 90 degrees. I'm going to assume this based on my experience, and your further complaint about the boat trapping your dad underneath it without an air bubble. (i.e. - he stayed in place too long) So, I'm going to infer that either of you did not go over the high-side as she turned over (the preferred option), or jump clear to leward (onto the mainsail – not a preferred option) What do you think the effect of clinging to the high side of hull/deck once the boat has gone past 90 degrees of heel would have on the "time to turtle" equation? How about clinging to the high-side of a boat that's going over with her ballasted centerboard raised? "…the failure of a centerboard stop to prevent the centerboard from completely recessing into the centerboard trunk." I agree that this is a good thing to have. However, when you capsized the boat, you had the board raised! The board didn't "swing into the trunk", YOU pulled the board up and placed it there. As for the capsize on the mooring, the P-185 (board up, or down) isn't a design well suited to being unattended on a mooring. Having the board retract into the hull – if you did have the board down – only made the recovery more difficult, it didn't cause the capsize. Dinghies, by design, require their crew in order to remain upright. Did you really believe that a P-185 was suitable for lying to a mooring during a thunderstorm? ...Or, did you just hope that it was? What do you think now? If you bought another type of centerboard dinghy, would you leave it on the same mooring, in the same conditions? Why? "…the cutout in the transom that combined with the turtling, can trap an occupant beneath without an air pocket. ...Is an air pocket a required design feature? Should it be? Does a Hobie Cat have an air pocket? Do all other boats have them? When capsizing, where should you position yourself? Was there really no air pocket? (Hint: I'll go out on a limb and bet that there really was an air pocket at the forward end of the cockpit.) Should really try to get the air pocket if it is there? Should a responsible skipper practice capsizing his boat in controlled conditions to learn how it behaves? Would having done so help you in any way? What changes to the boat, or your immediate reactions to the capsize, might you have initiated based on the experience you might have gained? "…to dismiss one owner's admonitions about potential safety issues as somehow being misguided or worse, hurting the reputation of the boating community, are off the mark." I'm not dismissing your issues – but I am absolutely questioning your conclusions. You did face a safety hazard, but it was primarily a result of your own actions. There are other choices you could have made anywhere along the line that would have prevented these situations, but you did not make those choices. In my opinion, the boat performed and behaved as it reasonably could have been expected to, particularly in light of how it was being handled underway by you, or being stored by you when not being sailed. I think your focus on the boat as the cause of your problem is only valid to the degree that you clearly bought a boat that you could not handle. As I mentioned previously, this is the "boat/skipper" realtionship, and it is so important. There are boats I can not handle, and boats that most of us could not handle. Those boats aren't manifestly unsafe, but they are inappropriate for some of us. Your demonstrated abilities and inclinations would seem to indicate that a self-righting, self-bailing, significantly ballasted design would be far more appropriate for you. There are lots of good choices out there, and I hope you won't sour on sailing as a pastime as a result of your frightening experience. I wish you good luck in all your future endeavors, with the exception of any litigation or misguided "admonitions" you assail against the builders, designers, or brokers of good small boats like Precisions. I urge you to take this opportunity to examine yourself, your actions, and your choices outside the smokescreen of fingerpointing at designers and builders of good boats that perform exactly as intended (and expected) by the vast majority of owners. Tom Scott, P-18 #129 "Alert"